en:misc:talk-saine-novella
Differences
This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.
| Both sides previous revision Previous revision Next revision | Previous revision Next revision Both sides next revision | ||
|
en:misc:talk-saine-novella [2013/04/15 08:21] legatum |
en:misc:talk-saine-novella [2013/04/15 09:43] legatum |
||
|---|---|---|---|
| Line 2: | Line 2: | ||
| {{anchor:s2}} | {{anchor:s2}} | ||
| - | This is a transcription of a [[http://mediasite.uchc.edu/mediasite41/Play/f45177db9279460797ffe70714a3f5611d|video]] recording a talk on homeopathy that took place on the premises of the University of Connecticut, March 22<sup>nd</sup>, 2013. The topic of the talk was //Homeopathy: Great Medicine or Dangerous Pseudoscience?//, the opponents were Dr. André Saine and Dr. Steven Novella. | + | This is a transcription of a [[http://mediasite.uchc.edu/mediasite41/Play/f45177db9279460797ffe70714a3f5611d|video]] of a talk on homeopathy that took place on the premises of the University of Connecticut, March 22<sup>nd</sup>, 2013. The topic of the talk was //Homeopathy: Great Medicine or Dangerous Pseudoscience?//, the opponents were Dr. André Saine and Dr. Steven Novella. |
| <WRAP center round info 60%> | <WRAP center round info 60%> | ||
| Line 10: | Line 10: | ||
| ===== Introduction ===== | ===== Introduction ===== | ||
| - | Presenter: Good Afternoon! Welcome to the University of Connecticut Health Center & to a debate that we're having today on - **Homeopathy: Great Medicine or Dangerous Pseudoscience?** We are honored today to have two of the experts debating this topic today. First of all Dr. André Saine who has been a student of homeopathy since 1976 and is likely the most knowledgeable person regarding homeopathic practice, research and literature and more particularly the early writings. He is an instructor and speaker on this topic, traveling throughout the world to do this. Since 1995 he has been the president of Québec Association of Naturopathic Physicians and has an active private practice in Montréal Canada. | + | Presenter: Good Afternoon! Welcome to the University of Connecticut Health Center & to a debate that we're having today on - **Homeopathy: Great Medicine or Dangerous Pseudoscience?** We are honored to have two of the experts debating this topic today. First of all Dr. André Saine who has been a student of homeopathy since 1976 and is likely the most knowledgeable person regarding homeopathic practice, research and literature and more particularly the early writings. He is an instructor and speaker on this topic, traveling throughout the world to do this. Since 1995 he has been the president of Québec Association of Naturopathic Physicians and has an active private practice in Montréal Canada. |
| - | Dr. Steven Novella is president of New England Skeptical Society and is a long time critic of the homeopathic medicine. He received his M.D. degree from George Washington University. Since 1996 he has been and is an assistant professor of Neurology and is an attending physician at Young New Haven Medical Center. To start with today, we first welcome you from wherever positions you sit in, we hope everybody comes here with an open mind and listens carefully to the debate. | + | Dr. Steven Novella is president of New England Skeptical Society and is a long time critic of the homeopathic medicine. He received his M.D. degree from George Washington University. Since 1996 he has been and is an assistant professor of Neurology and is an attending physician at Yale New Haven Medical Center. To start with today, we first welcome you from wherever positions you sit in, we hope everybody comes here with an open mind and listens carefully to the debate. |
| - | There was a roundtable discussion where these two gentlemen were involved in 2007, here at the Health Center and that's published in Complementary and Alternative Medicine, if you like to look it up. First of all, the format is very important for our debate, for us as listeners but also to our debaters and it would proceed in the following way: Each will have 30 minutes, starting with Dr. Saine. Then there will be 10 minutes each for the first rebuttal, 2 minutes each for the second rebuttal and then they'll have 20 minutes in which time they can cross-examine each other. Then there will be questions from the public, so, on your way in, you received cards -- Mr. Gold will be collecting cards throughout the presentation and he'll be bringing up to the front so that we can sort of collate them, so that we have a concise question-and-answer period. | + | There was a roundtable discussion where these two gentlemen were involved in 2007, here at the Health Center and that's published in Complementary and Alternative Medicine, if you like to look it up. First of all, the format is very important for our debate, for us as listeners but also to our debaters and it would proceed in the following way: Each will have 30 minutes, starting with Dr. Saine. Then there will be 10 minutes each for the first rebuttal, 2 minutes each for the second rebuttal and then they'll have 20 minutes in which time they can cross-examine each other. Then there will be questions from the public, so, on your way in, you received cards -- Mr. Gold will be collecting cards throughout the presentation and he'll be bringing [them] up to the front so that we can sort of collate them; so that we have a concise question-and-answer period. |
| Then there will be a conclusion, there will be a vote asking you whether or not you feel more or less favorably about homeopathic medicine at this time, based on the debate; and there'll be some closing remarks. We respectfully, for the presenters, ask you that there aren't interruptions until the part in the question-and-answer period and we'll have to stick to that. Okay? Thank you so much for your interest. (Audience clapping) Dr. Saine! | Then there will be a conclusion, there will be a vote asking you whether or not you feel more or less favorably about homeopathic medicine at this time, based on the debate; and there'll be some closing remarks. We respectfully, for the presenters, ask you that there aren't interruptions until the part in the question-and-answer period and we'll have to stick to that. Okay? Thank you so much for your interest. (Audience clapping) Dr. Saine! | ||
| Line 22: | Line 22: | ||
| Dr. Saine: Good afternoon, we can feel spring in the air and time of renewal. First, I would like to thank Dr. Mary Guerrera for the invitation on behalf of UConn, it’s quite an honor to be able to be called to this historic debate, which I would like to dedicate to **Samuel Hahnemann—the founder of homeopathy**—who exactly two hundred years ago, in 1813, was put in charge of a typhus hospital following the battle of Leipzig, which is a famous battle, and reported having treated 183 cases of typhus without a single loss. Such stunning result greatly impressed the Russian Government, then in occupation, but very strangely went unnoticed by the medical community. This is very particular in view of the fact that this deadly epidemic would eventually take half a million victims among Napoleon’s army and the German population. | Dr. Saine: Good afternoon, we can feel spring in the air and time of renewal. First, I would like to thank Dr. Mary Guerrera for the invitation on behalf of UConn, it’s quite an honor to be able to be called to this historic debate, which I would like to dedicate to **Samuel Hahnemann—the founder of homeopathy**—who exactly two hundred years ago, in 1813, was put in charge of a typhus hospital following the battle of Leipzig, which is a famous battle, and reported having treated 183 cases of typhus without a single loss. Such stunning result greatly impressed the Russian Government, then in occupation, but very strangely went unnoticed by the medical community. This is very particular in view of the fact that this deadly epidemic would eventually take half a million victims among Napoleon’s army and the German population. | ||
| - | Ladies and Gentlemen, today, we have a rare opportunity to critically examine two completely opposite views of homeopathy. In theory, if Dr. Novella and I use the best of scientific thinking, and stick only to facts and sound reasoning on this purely scientific question, we should come to the same conclusion, as true scientists are self-critical, and true science is self-correcting. | + | Ladies and Gentlemen, today, we have a rare opportunity to critically examine two completely opposite views of homeopathy. In theory, if Dr. Novella and I use the best of scientific thinking, and stick only to facts and sound reasoning on this purely scientific question, we should come to the same conclusion -- as true scientists are self-critical, and true science is self-correcting. |
| I will now ask your unreserved attention for the next 30 minutes, as I will now present a very condensed summary of the evidence that supports homeopathy to be a great, and most scientific and beneficial medicine. So we will need all your neurons! | I will now ask your unreserved attention for the next 30 minutes, as I will now present a very condensed summary of the evidence that supports homeopathy to be a great, and most scientific and beneficial medicine. So we will need all your neurons! | ||
| - | Let me first address the argument of implausibility, the core issue in this 200 year-old dispute, which focuses in particular on the fact that homeopaths use ultra-molecular preparations. Ultra Molecular Preparations or UMPs are prepared from solutions that went through a process of serial succussions and dilutions usually exceeding, in theory, Avogadro’s limit. Skeptics commonly assume that UMPs are indistinguishable from placebo and from each other. We find, in this 2003 thermo luminescence study of UMPs published in Physica A that: | + | Let me first address the argument of implausibility, the core issue in this 200 year-old dispute, which focuses in particular on the fact that homeopaths use ultra-molecular preparations. Ultra Molecular Preparations or UMPs are prepared from solutions that went through a process of serial succussions and dilutions usually exceeding, in theory, Avogadro’s limit. Skeptics commonly assume that UMPs are indistinguishable from placebo and from each other. We find, in this 2003 thermoluminescence study of UMPs published in Physica A that: |
| //Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride 10// <sup>//-30//</sup> //have been irradiated by x-rays and gamma-rays. It was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro’s number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.// | //Ultra-high dilutions of lithium chloride and sodium chloride 10// <sup>//-30//</sup> //have been irradiated by x-rays and gamma-rays. It was found that, despite their dilution beyond the Avogadro’s number, the emitted light was specific of the original salts dissolved initially.// | ||
| Line 42: | Line 42: | ||
| Now that we know that UMPs are more than just water with peculiar and totally unexpected physical-chemical properties, let’s look at another of skeptic common assumption, namely that UMPs are “diluted to the point that no active ingredient remains.” Again skeptics are contradicted by modern scientific research. The authors of this 2010 paper wrote: | Now that we know that UMPs are more than just water with peculiar and totally unexpected physical-chemical properties, let’s look at another of skeptic common assumption, namely that UMPs are “diluted to the point that no active ingredient remains.” Again skeptics are contradicted by modern scientific research. The authors of this 2010 paper wrote: | ||
| - | //We have demonstrated for the first time by Transmission Electron Microscopy, … <wrap hi>the presence of physical entities</wrap> in these extreme dilutions, in the form of nanoparticles of the starting metals and their aggregates. Here you can see pictures of Stannum metallicum or tin in dilutions equivalent to 10// <sup>//-60//</sup> //and 10// <sup>//-400//</sup>. | + | //We have demonstrated for the first time by Transmission Electron Microscopy, … <wrap hi>the presence of physical entities</wrap> in these extreme dilutions, in the form of nanoparticles of the starting metals and their aggregates.// |
| + | |||
| + | Here you can see pictures of Stannum metallicum or tin in dilutions equivalent to 10<sup>-60</sup> and 10 <sup>-400</sup>. | ||
| In another paper recently published in the high impact journal //Langmuir//, which is the journal of surfaces and colloids of the American Chemical Society, whose motto is -- “the most trusted, the most cited and the most read”. The authors wrote: | In another paper recently published in the high impact journal //Langmuir//, which is the journal of surfaces and colloids of the American Chemical Society, whose motto is -- “the most trusted, the most cited and the most read”. The authors wrote: | ||
| - | //Physicochemical studies of these solutions have unequivocally established the presence of the starting raw materials in nanoparticulate form <wrap hi>even in these extreme (super-Avogadro, >10 <sup>23</sup> ) dilutions</wrap>// //. We have demonstrated that lactose during grinding helped in the formation of nanoclusters.// | + | //Physicochemical studies of these solutions have unequivocally established the presence of the starting raw materials in nanoparticulate form <wrap hi>even in these extreme (super-Avogadro, >10 <sup>-23</sup> ) dilutions</wrap>// //. We have demonstrated that lactose during grinding helped in the formation of nanoclusters.// |
| Here you can see nanocluster of gold nanoparticles with lactose. | Here you can see nanocluster of gold nanoparticles with lactose. | ||
| Line 56: | Line 58: | ||
| //Our conclusions arise from our experiments indicating that in the successive dilution process of manufacturing, beyond a certain stage, <wrap hi>the dilution is merely apparent and the concentration of the starting material in the diluted product reaches a zero asymptotic level no matter how much more the sample is diluted.</wrap>// | //Our conclusions arise from our experiments indicating that in the successive dilution process of manufacturing, beyond a certain stage, <wrap hi>the dilution is merely apparent and the concentration of the starting material in the diluted product reaches a zero asymptotic level no matter how much more the sample is diluted.</wrap>// | ||
| - | In a 2005 paper in Materials Research Innovations, entitled “ //The Structure Of Liquid Water; Novel Insights From Materials Research; Potential Relevance To Homeopathy//**”** we can read: | + | In a 2005 paper in Materials Research Innovations, entitled “//The Structure Of Liquid Water; Novel Insights From Materials Research; Potential Relevance To Homeopathy//**”** we can read: |
| //This paper <wrap hi>definitively</wrap> demolishes the objection against homeopathy. The burden of the proof on critics of homeopathy is to establish that the structure of processed remedy is not different from the original solvent. The principal conclusions of this paper concern only the plausibility of the biological action of ultradiluted water remedy, they are based on some very old (e.g. homeopathy) and some very new (e.g. metallic and nanobubble colloids) <wrap hi>observations which have been rejected on invalid grounds</wrap> or due to ignorance of the materials research literature and its theoretical basis.// | //This paper <wrap hi>definitively</wrap> demolishes the objection against homeopathy. The burden of the proof on critics of homeopathy is to establish that the structure of processed remedy is not different from the original solvent. The principal conclusions of this paper concern only the plausibility of the biological action of ultradiluted water remedy, they are based on some very old (e.g. homeopathy) and some very new (e.g. metallic and nanobubble colloids) <wrap hi>observations which have been rejected on invalid grounds</wrap> or due to ignorance of the materials research literature and its theoretical basis.// | ||
| Line 66: | Line 68: | ||
| //In conclusion, our work and that of many other researchers suggests that <wrap hi>homeopathy is not only plausible, but constitutes one of the frontiers of medical science, and more specifically of complexity science, biophysics, and nanopharmacology.</wrap> For these reasons the tenet according to which ‘homeopathy is based on principles that are incompatible with well established science‘ cannot be accepted and <wrap hi>investigation of homeopathic treatments appears to be warranted and ethically justifiable.</wrap>// | //In conclusion, our work and that of many other researchers suggests that <wrap hi>homeopathy is not only plausible, but constitutes one of the frontiers of medical science, and more specifically of complexity science, biophysics, and nanopharmacology.</wrap> For these reasons the tenet according to which ‘homeopathy is based on principles that are incompatible with well established science‘ cannot be accepted and <wrap hi>investigation of homeopathic treatments appears to be warranted and ethically justifiable.</wrap>// | ||
| - | Now, that we have addressed the question of biological plausibility of these rather complex UMPs, the next question in order is to verify whether they are completely ineffective as medicine, as claimed by skeptic. | + | Now, that we have addressed the question of biological plausibility of these rather complex UMPs, the next question in order is to verify whether they are completely ineffective as medicine, as claimed by skeptics. |
| Let’s first look at the //in vitro// research. We find this 2007 //systematic assessment of the// //in vitro// //research on high potency effects which had an inclusive criteria of stepwise agitated dilutions <10//<sup>//−23//</sup>//; cells or molecules from human or animal. The results:// //From 75 publications, 67 experiments (1/3 of them replications) were evaluated. <wrap hi>Nearly 3/4 of them found a high potency effect</wrap>,... <wrap hi>Nearly 3/4 of all replications were positive.</wrap> Conclusion: Experiments with a high methodological standard... demonstrate an effect of high potencies.// | Let’s first look at the //in vitro// research. We find this 2007 //systematic assessment of the// //in vitro// //research on high potency effects which had an inclusive criteria of stepwise agitated dilutions <10//<sup>//−23//</sup>//; cells or molecules from human or animal. The results:// //From 75 publications, 67 experiments (1/3 of them replications) were evaluated. <wrap hi>Nearly 3/4 of them found a high potency effect</wrap>,... <wrap hi>Nearly 3/4 of all replications were positive.</wrap> Conclusion: Experiments with a high methodological standard... demonstrate an effect of high potencies.// | ||
| Line 88: | Line 90: | ||
| //In a prospective, multicentre cohort study with 103 homeopathic primary care practices in Germany and Switzerland, data from all patients (older than 1 year) consulting the physician for the first time were observed. Results: A total of 3,709 patients were studied, 73% contributed data to the 8-year follow-up. <wrap hi>Disease severity decreased significantly (p < 0.001) between baseline, 2 and 8 years. Physical and mental quality of life scores also increased considerably.</wrap> Conclusion: <wrap hi>Patients who seek homeopathic treatment are likely to improve significantly.</wrap> These effects last for as long as 8 years.// | //In a prospective, multicentre cohort study with 103 homeopathic primary care practices in Germany and Switzerland, data from all patients (older than 1 year) consulting the physician for the first time were observed. Results: A total of 3,709 patients were studied, 73% contributed data to the 8-year follow-up. <wrap hi>Disease severity decreased significantly (p < 0.001) between baseline, 2 and 8 years. Physical and mental quality of life scores also increased considerably.</wrap> Conclusion: <wrap hi>Patients who seek homeopathic treatment are likely to improve significantly.</wrap> These effects last for as long as 8 years.// | ||
| - | Now, let’s look at the skeptics' claim that Randomized Controlled Trials (RCTs) have failed to reliably detect any effect above and beyond placebo effects. The first one, we will look at, is a 2011 study in which the outcome was __**life or death**__**:** | + | Now, let’s look at the skeptics' claim that Randomized Controlled Trials (RCTs) have failed to reliably detect any effect above and beyond placebo effects. The first one, we will look at, is a 2011 study in which the outcome was **life or death:** |
| //Background: Mortality in patients with severe sepsis remains high despite the development of several therapeutic strategies. The incidence of severe sepsis is between 70,000 to 300,000 patients in the United States each year. The aim of this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial was to evaluate whether homeopathy is able to influence long-term outcome in critically ill patients suffering from severe sepsis.// | //Background: Mortality in patients with severe sepsis remains high despite the development of several therapeutic strategies. The incidence of severe sepsis is between 70,000 to 300,000 patients in the United States each year. The aim of this randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled trial was to evaluate whether homeopathy is able to influence long-term outcome in critically ill patients suffering from severe sepsis.// | ||
| Line 118: | Line 120: | ||
| Now the question he tried to answer -- “Is homeopathy clinically relevant?” Dean reported://“Homeopathy appears mostly as safe as reputed. Homeopathy does appear to be <wrap hi>capable of influencing global outcome</wrap> such as well-being and co-morbidity. Finally, economic benefits are noticeable.”// | Now the question he tried to answer -- “Is homeopathy clinically relevant?” Dean reported://“Homeopathy appears mostly as safe as reputed. Homeopathy does appear to be <wrap hi>capable of influencing global outcome</wrap> such as well-being and co-morbidity. Finally, economic benefits are noticeable.”// | ||
| - | Now, let’s look at the most recent and most comprehensive review ever conducted on the effectiveness, safety, cost-effectiveness and real world outcome of homeopathy, which is referred to as **“**__**The Swiss Study**__**”** that was released in November 2011. It is reported -- //“This is a Health Technology Assessment (HTA) conducted over a period of seven years by scientists for the Swiss government. An HTA is an established scientific procedure, which in contrast with meta-analysis and systematic reviews examines not only the efficacy of homeopathy, but especially “its real-world effectiveness,” its appropriateness, safety and economy.// //HTAs are therefore much wider in scope and politically more informative.// **For the evaluation of the effectiveness of homeopathy all available systematic reviews were examined.** All meta-analyses were prepared by the Institute for Social and Preventive Medicine of the University of Berne (where the Shang study actually came out in 2005), which is specialized on research on public health issues. | + | Now, let’s look at the most recent and most comprehensive review ever conducted on the effectiveness, safety, cost-effectiveness and real world outcome of homeopathy, which is referred to as **“The Swiss Study”** that was released in November 2011. It is reported -- //“This is a Health Technology Assessment (HTA) conducted over a period of seven years by scientists for the Swiss government. An HTA is an established scientific procedure, which in contrast with meta-analysis and systematic reviews examines not only the efficacy of homeopathy, but especially “its real-world effectiveness,” its appropriateness, safety and economy.// //HTAs are therefore much wider in scope and politically more informative.// **For the evaluation of the effectiveness of homeopathy all available systematic reviews were examined.** All meta-analyses were prepared by the Institute for Social and Preventive Medicine of the University of Berne (where the Shang study actually came out in 2005), which is specialized on research on public health issues. |
| //A total of 22 reviews were analyzed. The synopsis of study results found at least a <wrap hi>trend in favour of homeopathy in 20 of 22 reviews.</wrap>// | //A total of 22 reviews were analyzed. The synopsis of study results found at least a <wrap hi>trend in favour of homeopathy in 20 of 22 reviews.</wrap>// | ||
| Line 140: | Line 142: | ||
| My second epidemiological example relates to **pneumonia.** Before the introduction of antibiotics it was widely recognized that the average death rate from pneumonia was around 30%. | My second epidemiological example relates to **pneumonia.** Before the introduction of antibiotics it was widely recognized that the average death rate from pneumonia was around 30%. | ||
| - | In 1912, William Osler, the father of modern medicine, wrote: “ //The statistics at my clinic at the John Hopkins Hospital from 1889 to 1905 have been analyzed... there were 658 cases with 200 deaths, a mortality of 30.4%... a// //study of the pneumonia statistics at the London Hospital from 1854-1903 concluded that the fatality of the disease has not appreciably changed during this period...// //there is an extraordinary uniformity in the mortality// .” A recent meta-analysis on the mortality from pneumonia reported: | + | In 1912, William Osler, the father of modern medicine, wrote: “ //The statistics at my clinic at the John Hopkins Hospital from 1889 to 1905 have been analyzed... there were 658 cases with 200 deaths, a mortality of 30.4%... a// //study of the pneumonia statistics at the London Hospital from 1854-1903 concluded that the fatality of the disease has not appreciably changed during this period...// //there is an extraordinary uniformity in the mortality.//” A recent meta-analysis on the mortality from pneumonia reported: |
| //Community-acquired pneumonia remains a major cause of mortality at 14% while hospital-acquired pneumonia carries a higher mortality between 50 and 70 percent.// //Worldwide, more children younger than five die of pneumonia than AIDS, malaria and tuberculosis combined.// | //Community-acquired pneumonia remains a major cause of mortality at 14% while hospital-acquired pneumonia carries a higher mortality between 50 and 70 percent.// //Worldwide, more children younger than five die of pneumonia than AIDS, malaria and tuberculosis combined.// | ||
| Line 146: | Line 148: | ||
| Between 1847 and 1849, Dr. Jean-Paul Tessier, one of the distinguished allopathic practitioners of medicine in Paris, conducted at the St. Marguerite Hospital experiments to investigate homeopathy in the treatment of pneumonia. He wrote: | Between 1847 and 1849, Dr. Jean-Paul Tessier, one of the distinguished allopathic practitioners of medicine in Paris, conducted at the St. Marguerite Hospital experiments to investigate homeopathy in the treatment of pneumonia. He wrote: | ||
| - | “ //I presented myself neither as a partisan nor as an opponent of homeopathy but as a scientist guarding myself against the misguiding bias of blind passion, and endeavored to strictly adhere to the legitimate demands of a scientific inquiry// **.”** | + | “//I presented myself neither as a partisan nor as an opponent of homeopathy but as a scientist guarding myself against the misguiding bias of blind passion, and endeavored to strictly adhere to the legitimate demands of a scientific inquiry//.” |
| In total, he reported very detailed cases with 37 recoveries and 3 deaths, a mortality rate of 7.5%. Instead of being hailed as a hero by his allopathic colleagues, Dr. Tessier was ridiculed for his experiments and banished forever from the allopathic circles. This means that by simply switching from allopathy to homeopathy he was saving 23 more lives out of 100 patients with pneumonia. This is really incredible but at same time appears almost too good to be true. | In total, he reported very detailed cases with 37 recoveries and 3 deaths, a mortality rate of 7.5%. Instead of being hailed as a hero by his allopathic colleagues, Dr. Tessier was ridiculed for his experiments and banished forever from the allopathic circles. This means that by simply switching from allopathy to homeopathy he was saving 23 more lives out of 100 patients with pneumonia. This is really incredible but at same time appears almost too good to be true. | ||
| Line 174: | Line 176: | ||
| - The Law of Infinitesimals | - The Law of Infinitesimals | ||
| - | Now, these laws, in the 200 years since Hahnemann developed them, have not been established by mainstream scientific investigation. They remain pre-scientific notions that have not yet been validated. The notion of 'like cures like', really, what is a manifestation of the idea that was popular at the time called sympathetic magic -- the notion that things will cure things that they look like or they are similar to. From a homeopathic site describing what this principle means //“In other words the substance produces symptoms of illness in a well person when administered in large doses; if we administer the same substance in minute quantities it will cure the disease in a sick person -- like cures like!”// Although they don't actually follow that rule because they don't give minute quantities they give nonexistent quantities as you would see. | + | Now, these laws, in the 200 years since Hahnemann developed them, have not been established by mainstream scientific investigation. They remain pre-scientific notions that have not yet been validated. The notion of 'like cures like', really, what is a manifestation of the idea that was popular at the time called sympathetic magic -- the notion that things will cure things that they look like or they are similar to. From a homeopathic site describing what this principle means -- //“In other words the substance produces symptoms of illness in a well person when administered in large doses; if we administer the same substance in minute quantities it will cure the disease in a sick person -- like cures like!”// Although they don't actually follow that rule because they don't give minute quantities -- they give nonexistent quantities as you would see. |
| - | Now many homeopaths or proponents of homeopathy have likened that principle to vaccines, when we give vaccines to patients we give them a small dose and that prevents the disease to the same thing that we are giving them, but that's a very superficial analogy that doesn't hold up. Vaccines actually give measurable doses of a substance that are known to provoke an immune response and essentially what's happening is that the immune response can then fight off a later exposure to that same thing. This is not analogous in any way to any of the principles of homeopathy or how homeopathy is practiced. | + | Now many homeopaths or proponents of homeopathy have likened that principle to vaccines -- when we give vaccines to patients we give them a small dose and that prevents the disease to the same thing that we are giving them, but that's a very superficial analogy that doesn't hold up. Vaccines actually give measurable doses of a substance that are known to provoke an immune response and essentially what's happening is that the immune response can then fight off a later exposure to that same thing. This is not analogous in any way to any of the principles of homeopathy or how homeopathy is practiced. |
| It is also important to recognize that Hahnemann and many homeopaths even till today don't actually treat what we, in modern times, consider to be a disease. Actually, the concept of a disease is a fairly new one, meaning it's only about a couple of hundred years old and it didn't really come to dominate medicine until after scientific methodology matured and became systematically applied to medicine only about a 150 years ago. | It is also important to recognize that Hahnemann and many homeopaths even till today don't actually treat what we, in modern times, consider to be a disease. Actually, the concept of a disease is a fairly new one, meaning it's only about a couple of hundred years old and it didn't really come to dominate medicine until after scientific methodology matured and became systematically applied to medicine only about a 150 years ago. | ||
| - | Homeopaths treat illness. They treat something that is not well defined patho-physiologically. They take what many call a holistic approach considering personality, temperament, sometimes superficial characteristics, in designing their treatment -- not based upon any modern concept that we would know of as a disease. | + | Homeopaths treat illness. They treat something that is not well defined patho-physiologically. They take what many call a holistic approach; considering personality, temperament, sometimes superficial characteristics, in designing their treatment -- not based upon any modern concept that we would know of as a disease. |
| - | The Law of Cure -- again, these are notions were developed by Hahnemann at a time that we had, really, very little idea how human body works let alone how disease processes work. So he had notions that the remedy starts at the top of the body and works downward, works from within and then goes outwards, symptoms clear in reverse order of appearance -- none of these notions have any basis in scientific reality. | + | The Law of Cure -- again, these are notions that were developed by Hahnemann at a time that we had, really, very little idea how human body works, let alone how disease processes work. So he had notions that the remedy starts at the top of the body and works downward, works from within and then goes outwards, symptoms clear in reverse order of appearance -- none of these notions have any basis in scientific reality. |
| Homeopathy, actually, is an energy-based medicine. Hahnemann believed that what is transferred to the patient is the essence, not anything physical, but the essence of the treatments that he concocted. These are more of a spiritual treatment than a physical treatment. He believed that dilution and succussion release a spirit-like power or an essence from the remedy that would have a healing potential in the human person. | Homeopathy, actually, is an energy-based medicine. Hahnemann believed that what is transferred to the patient is the essence, not anything physical, but the essence of the treatments that he concocted. These are more of a spiritual treatment than a physical treatment. He believed that dilution and succussion release a spirit-like power or an essence from the remedy that would have a healing potential in the human person. | ||
| Line 376: | Line 378: | ||
| ===== Questions from the audience ===== | ===== Questions from the audience ===== | ||
| - | I apologize, I required format clarification. And second, I would like to say thank you all of you who submitted questions and I think it's probably unlikely that we're going to get to all of them but we will try. Some of them were addressed in this recent discourse and those I have, sort of, put aside. What I would like to do is kind of take a break and ask one of the questions that's kind of different... then I would like each of you to take a minute to respond to this particular question because it has to do with an opinion -- “Is it possible that homeopathy has not been sufficiently studied double-blind because there would be not great financial rewards for pharmaceutical companies and investors?” This is a practical question! | + | Presenter: And second, I would like to say thank you all of you who submitted questions and I think it's probably unlikely that we're going to get to all of them but we will try. Some of them were addressed in this recent discourse and those I have, sort of, put aside. What I would like to do is kind of take a break and ask one of the questions that's kind of different... then I would like each of you to take a minute to respond to this particular question because it has to do with an opinion -- “Is it possible that homeopathy has not been sufficiently studied double-blind because there would be no great financial rewards for pharmaceutical companies and investors?” This is a practical question! |
| - | Dr. Saine: I can answer that. David Riley from Scotland went into homeopathy to disprove homeopathy and he came that it was better than placebo. And he says this -- “There is a very major implication here that '//either the RCT model doesn't work, there is something wrong with it or homeopathy works!'”// in either case it's a very big trouble for modern medicine -- because if homeopathy works it's basically the end of modern medicine to some degree. We're talking about a curative system versus a palliative system. It would be a very big problem for modern medicine, drug companies have major investment. If we treat a patient with migraine for instance, how much it is a drug for migraine per year? You would know better! (Laughing) a 100, a 1000, a 2000, a 5000, it’s a lot of money for drug companies they are losing every year! | + | Dr. Saine: I can answer that. David Riley from Scotland went into homeopathy to disprove homeopathy and he came that it was better than placebo. And he says this -- “There is a very major implication here that '//either the RCT model doesn't work, there is something wrong with it or homeopathy works!'”// in either case it's a very big trouble for modern medicine -- because if homeopathy works it's basically the end of modern medicine to some degree. We're talking about a curative system versus a palliative system. It would be a very big problem for modern medicine, drug companies have major investment. If we treat a patient with migraine for instance, how much is it -- a drug for migraine, per year? You would know better! (Laughing) a 100, a 1000, a 2000, a 5000, it’s a lot of money for drug companies they are losing every year! |
| - | Presenter: So, let me clarify, your answer to the question would be yes? (Laughing) | + | Presenter: So, let me clarify, your answer to the question would be 'yes'? (Laughing) |
| Dr. Saine: Yes to the truth! | Dr. Saine: Yes to the truth! | ||
| - | Dr. Novella: Well, Boiron is a pharmaceutical company, they are making hundreds of millions, billions of dollars selling homeopathic medicines. They have the same exact incentives as any pharmaceutical company producing drugs, so the same would apply to them. Also I completely disagree, first of all, that there is a palliative versus curative system. Mainstream medicine attempts to identify and treat and cure the actual cause of disease whenever possible, so that is a false dichotomy. And I don’t think that it would be the end of medicine; if it worked, we would be doing it, we would just incorporate it and own it! It would be part of mainstream medicine; pharmaceutical companies make homeopathic remedies just like they make supplements. They will put anything on the market that is going to make them money. So I think that is a false premise in the question. I think the answer is what will improve research? What will lead to more research? Is when you change the regulation so that research is required to go to market. The only reason why pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars on research is because they have to! If the homeopathic producers had to do research to get on the market they would do it too. | + | Dr. Novella: Well, Boiron is a pharmaceutical company, they are making hundreds of millions, billions of dollars selling homeopathic medicines. They have the same exact incentives as any pharmaceutical company producing drugs, so the same would apply to them. Also I completely disagree, first of all, that there is a palliative versus curative system. Mainstream medicine attempts to identify and treat and cure the actual cause of disease whenever possible, so that is a false dichotomy. And I don’t think that it would be the end of medicine; if it worked, we would be doing it, we would just incorporate it and own it. It would be part of mainstream medicine; pharmaceutical companies make homeopathic remedies just like they make supplements. They will put anything on the market that is going to make them money. So I think that is a false premise in the question. I think the question is 'what will improve research'? What will lead to more research? It's when you change the regulation so that research is required to go to market. The only reason why pharmaceutical companies spend billions of dollars on research is because they have to! If the homeopathic producers had to do research to get on the market they would do it too. |
| Presenter: So based on your answers I'm going to stay along this particular ring. On a topic of today's medicines, do approved ones go through clinical trials? Do they meet the scientific standards you describe, Dr. Novella? | Presenter: So based on your answers I'm going to stay along this particular ring. On a topic of today's medicines, do approved ones go through clinical trials? Do they meet the scientific standards you describe, Dr. Novella? | ||
| Line 392: | Line 394: | ||
| Presenter: So who specifically are you working with? | Presenter: So who specifically are you working with? | ||
| - | Dr. Novella: This is the science-based medicine; this is my group of people who try to educate the public. | + | Dr. Novella: This is the Science-based Medicine (http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/); this is my group of people who try to educate the public. |
| Presenter: So you're lobbing specifically to FDA or.. | Presenter: So you're lobbing specifically to FDA or.. | ||
| - | Dr. Novella: We are not a lobbying group or an academic group but we have started up a group which is technically not a lobbying group we do get involved. We have written to educate the public about the problems of pharmaceutical companies hiding data and we have openly advocated, for example, clinical trial registries. So pharmaceutical compant has to register a clinical trial and that data is owned by the public. They can't say 'we own this data' and if it's negative we are going to sweep it under the rugs, they can't do that anymore. | + | Dr. Novella: We are not a lobbying group or an academic group but we have started up a group which is technically not a lobbying group, [but] we do get involved. We have written to educate the public about the problems of pharmaceutical companies hiding data and we have openly advocated, for example, clinical trial registries. So pharmaceutical company has to register a clinical trial and that data is owned by the public. They can't say 'we own this data' and if it's negative we are going to sweep it under the rugs -- they can't do that anymore. |
| Presenter: Thank you. | Presenter: Thank you. | ||
| Line 404: | Line 406: | ||
| Dr. Novella: Well, that's what we advocate that they should not. There is a www.clinicaltrials.gov where you can register all clinical trials and we want to make that mandatory. | Dr. Novella: Well, that's what we advocate that they should not. There is a www.clinicaltrials.gov where you can register all clinical trials and we want to make that mandatory. | ||
| - | Presenter: I agree! It should be mandatory! I use that as a resource all the time. | + | Presenter: This question is about water memory -- to give Dr. Saine an opportunity here. The question is and this is interesting as a scientist -- “How do you erase water memory that exists before preparing your homeopathic remedy?” |
| - | + | ||
| - | This question is about water memory -- to give Dr. Saine an opportunity here. The question is and this is interesting as a scientist -- “How do you erase water memory that exists before preparing your homeopathic remedy?” | + | |
| - | Dr. Saine: The concept of water memory didn't start with Benveniste. It started actually with Hahnemann. He didn't use the word 'memory' but in 1930 the French researchers used the word 'memory' and its being used since that time, but it means that something from the original substance creates an impression, is impregnated in the solvent -- the water or it could be lactose or alcohol or a mixture and so on. So, there is something that is transmitted. We know the phenomena of epitaxy. Epitaxy is a phenomena in the materials science, where you have information that is transmitted from a solid to a liquid without exchange of material. That phenomena is very well known and used in semiconductors. So there is a phenomena there. Why we don't have all memory of water from the river, because we use pure distilled water, the highest level of water to start with, it's very simple. And the remedies -- we know by our experiments that the chemical properties augment with time, but they can be destroyed too; if you expose them to certain electromagnetic fields, they are destroyed, this is well-documented. | + | Dr. Saine: The concept of water memory didn't start with Benveniste. It started, actually, with Hahnemann. He didn't use the word 'memory' but in 1930 the French researchers used the word 'memory' and it's being used since that time, but it means that something from the original substance creates an impression, is impregnated in the solvent -- the water or it could be lactose or alcohol or a mixture and so on. So, there is something that is transmitted. We know the phenomena of epitaxy. Epitaxy is a phenomena in the materials science, where you have information that is transmitted from a solid to a liquid without exchange of material. That phenomena is very well known and used in semiconductors. So there is a phenomena there. Why we don't have all memory of water from the river -- because we use pure distilled water, the highest level of water to start with, it's very simple. And the remedies -- we know by our experiments that the chemical properties augment with time, but they can be destroyed too; if you expose them to certain electromagnetic fields, they are destroyed, this is well-documented. |
| - | Presenter: Thank you! What types of studies do you think can be conducted by practicing homeopaths today that would add to research to support the validity of homeopathy? | + | Presenter: Thank you. What types of studies do you think can be conducted by practicing homeopaths today that would add to research to support the validity of homeopathy? |
| - | Dr. Saine: I think we need to just design trials that are conducted by genuine homeopaths and pure scientist, people like Dr. Novella, he is a very good scientist. So you use people who have good idea of science and people who have good idea of homeopathy and combine those two and you design very very high quality methodological trials. One we talked about in 2007 will be rabies. I was in Grenada in 2008 and there is an American university -- Saint George University in Grenada and there is rabies on the island and the American Medical Veterinary School there gets about 5000 cases of rabies in the pets from the island. What they do? They destroy them! We could design a very good quality double-blind study -- will be life or death -- either they die or they don't die with homeopathy. Actually there is a researcher in Algeria in the 1940s before the war, French researcher, that did experimental rabies and treated them with homeopathy with great success. I don't like that study because than you damage animals but other one you save the animals. Another good study would be very easy -- sepsis, double-blind or pneumonia... there are so many people with pneumonia, especially antibiotic resistant pneumonia, easy for homeopathy to do a double-blind randomized controlled trial, so easy, not expensive -- you save lives, lots of lives! | + | Dr. Saine: I think we need to just design trials that are conducted by genuine homeopaths and pure scientists, people like Dr. Novella -- he is a very good scientist. So you use people who have good idea of science and people who have good idea of homeopathy and combine those two and you design very very high quality methodological trials. One we talked about in 2007 will be rabies. I was in Grenada in 2008 and there is an American university -- Saint George University in Grenada and there is rabies on the island and the American Medical Veterinary School there gets about 5000 cases of rabies in the pets from the island. What [do] they do? They destroy them! We could design a very good quality double-blind study -- will be life or death -- either they die or they don't die with homeopathy. Actually there was a researcher in Algeria, in the 1940s, before the war, French researcher, that did experimental rabies and treated them with homeopathy with great success. I don't like that study because then you damage animals but [in the] other one, you save the animals. Another good study would be very easy -- sepsis, double-blind or pneumonia... there are so many people with pneumonia, especially antibiotic resistant pneumonia, easy for homeopathy to do a double-blind randomized controlled trial, so easy, not expensive -- you save lives, lots of lives! |
| - | Presenter: There's a couple of other questions on the pneumonia trial that was supported by other members of the audience, then that could be a good way. Dr. Novella, this one is interesting to me -- Why do homeopathically treated animals improve since animals are not influenced by placebo effect, since they don't think about their treatment? | + | Presenter: There's a couple of other questions on the pneumonia trial that was supported by other members of the audience, then that could be a good way. Dr. Novella, this one is interesting to me -- “Why do homeopathically treated animals improve since animals are not influenced by placebo effect, since they don't think about their treatment?” |
| - | Dr. Novella: That's a false premise to that question that animals are not subject to placebo effect. Most placebo effects have nothing to do with the person being treated knowing that they're being treated or having expectation. Expectation and knowing that you're being treated is part of it, but it's not the only source of placebo effects. There are statistical effects like regression to the mean, like when you choose to treat people or animals, there is probably one part of their disease that is likely to get better just by the normal course of the illness and also there are people treating these animals and evaluating them to decide who's getting better and who's not getting better so placebo effect is in full play with animals and babies, that's the other population that's brought up. Only there's a few pieces that are missing because they don't know that they are being treated but you still get 80 to 90% of the placebo effect from studying them and they still need to be properly double blinded, that’s why studies are double-blinded. The person doing the study and evaluating the outcome, they all need to be blinded as well. | + | Dr. Novella: That's a false premise to that question -- that animals are not subject to placebo effect. Most placebo effects have nothing to do with the person being treated knowing that they're being treated or having expectation. Expectation and knowing that you're being treated is part of it, but it's not the only source of placebo effects. There are statistical effects like regression to the mean, like when you choose to treat people or animals, there is probably one part of their disease that is likely to get better just by the normal course of the illness and also there are people treating these animals and evaluating them to decide who's getting better and who's not getting better, so placebo effect is in full play with animals and babies -- that's the other population that's brought up. Only there's a few pieces that are missing because they don't know that they are being treated but you still get 80 to 90% of the placebo effect from studying them and they still need to be properly double blinded; that’s why studies are double-blinded. The person doing the study and evaluating the outcome, they all need to be blinded as well. |
| - | Presenter: Thank you! This is a question from an attorney who specializes in medical malpractice. Perhaps you could make a statement in response to the statement -- “25 years of practice sued many doctors, hospitals and drug manufacturers. He has never sued a homeopathic physician or homeopathic manufacturer. I submit that western medicine is the real pseudoscience. Do you wanna respond to that? | + | Presenter: Thank you. This is a question from an attorney who specializes in medical malpractice. Perhaps you could make a statement in response to the statement -- “25 years of practice, sued many doctors, hospitals and drug manufacturers. He has never sued a homeopathic physician or homeopathic manufacturer. I submit that western medicine is the real pseudoscience.” Do you wanna respond to that? |
| - | Dr. Saine: I did a debate last November at McGill University with Dr. Joe Schwarcz,whom you know and we had to answer questions from the public afterward sand one of the questions from the public was //“if homeopathy is true like you said in the debate what are the implications for an individual and what are the implications for the society?”// I thought it was a very benign question so I started to answer the question and I say, listen, this has to be viewed in global perspective of the origin of homeopathy and allopathy. So when you hit the context of modern medicine right now, like he says, it's the corruption in the research, the iatrogenic diseases, I did not even think about some aspects... For instance, in 1955 there was introduction of psychotropic drugs and each ten years there was a new generation of psychotropic drugs that were introduced and since 1955 in United States, the rate of people with Chronic Mental Diseases has augmented by 8 times! 800 percent more Americans that are chronically mentally ill! How? So now with molecular biology they are understanding that when you use an agent that blocks a receptor, what happens to the cell, a neuron that is blocked? The receptor increases in size! What happens when the receptor increases in size? It becomes pathological, it creates a long-term pathology and anything can go in the cell now that was protected before by a small receptor. Now you have a chronic pathology that is perhaps irreversible! | + | Dr. Saine: I did a debate last November at McGill University with Dr. Joe Schwarcz, whom you know and we had to answer questions from the public afterwards and one of the questions from the public was //“if homeopathy is true like you said in the debate, what are the implications for an individual and what are the implications for the society?”// I thought it was a very benign question so I started to answer the question and I say, listen, this has to be viewed in global perspective of the origin of homeopathy and allopathy. So when you hit the context of modern medicine right now, like he says, it's the corruption in the research, the iatrogenic diseases, I did not even think about some aspects... For instance, in 1955 there was an introduction of psychotropic drugs and each ten years there was a new generation of psychotropic drugs that were introduced and since 1955 in United States, the rate of people with Chronic Mental Diseases has augmented by 8 times! 800 percent more Americans that are chronically mentally ill! How? So now with molecular biology they are understanding that when you use an agent that blocks a receptor, what happens to the cell, a neuron that is blocked? The receptor increases in size! What happens when the receptor increases in size? It becomes pathological, it creates a long-term pathology and anything can go in the cell now that was protected before by a small receptor. Now you have a chronic pathology that is perhaps irreversible! |
| - | Dr. Novella: It's hard to response to one person’s anecdotal experience about their own practice. Give me a public scientific study that I can examine for details. There is a standard of care in medicine but I don't know what is the standard of care is in homeopathy. And in order to sue someone for malpractice you have to demonstrate that that they did something which was substantially and demonstrably below the standards of care. What would that be for a homeopath? I am not sure. So there are probably cultural, societal or regulatory, perceptual differences that would lead to more lawsuits. Again medicine is hard, doing good medicine is very difficult. We are pushing the limits of what we can understand and what we can handle. I think that 'Western medicine' is another false dichotomy, science-based medicine is at least trying to do the best we can with the best evidence we have. It’s self-corrective, its examining everything that we do, we know about receptors getting larger from chronic treatment because we are asking questions like -- What is the real effect of treatments that we are giving? Because we want to know and yes it's really complicated but still the evidence is clear that when you practice science-based medicine within the standard of care, you have good outcomes, at least a chance of better outcome. And the fact that our life expectancy has dramatically increased to about 40 to 80 over the course of a hundred years of science-based medicine is pretty decent evidence for that. | + | Dr. Novella: It's hard to response to one person’s anecdotal experience about their own practice. Give me a public scientific study that I can examine for details. There is a standard of care in medicine but I don't know what the standard of care is in homeopathy. And in order to sue someone for malpractice you have to demonstrate that that they did something which was substantially and demonstrably below the standards of care. What would that be for a homeopath? I am not sure. So there are probably cultural, societal or regulatory, perceptual differences that would lead to more lawsuits. Again, medicine is hard, doing good medicine is very difficult. We are pushing the limits of what we can understand and what we can handle. I think that 'Western medicine' is another false dichotomy, science-based medicine is at least trying to do the best we can with the best evidence we have. It’s self-corrective, it's examining everything that we do. We know about receptors getting larger from chronic treatment because we are asking questions like -- What is the real effect of treatments that we are giving? Because we want to know and yes it's really complicated but still the evidence is clear that when you practice science-based medicine within the standard of care, you have good outcomes, at least a chance of better outcome. And the fact that our life expectancy has dramatically increased to about 40 to 80 over the course of a hundred years of science-based medicine is pretty decent evidence for that. |
| - | Presenter: Thank you! We have time for one last question this is relevant to our medical school. So, it's interesting, the question or the statement is and we would like both of you to comment on this. //“Uconn requires medical students to take classes and hands-on seminars in camp which is complementary and alternative medicine. I feel this is as silly as requiring PhD astrophysicist to study astrology because many people in the US believe in astrology. Do the two analysts believe that the UConn requirement is -- A. Progressive or B. A regression to medieval times.”// Keep in mind we are here at the University of Connecticut and medical students are going to take that this to heart so please use your care. | + | Presenter: Thank you! We have time for one last question; this is relevant to our medical school. So, it's interesting, the question or the statement is and we would like both of you to comment on this. //“Uconn requires medical students to take classes and hands-on seminars in camp which is complementary and alternative medicine. I feel this is as silly as requiring PhD astrophysicist to study astrology because many people in the US believe in astrology. Do the two analysts believe that the UConn requirement is -- A. Progressive or B. A regression to medieval times.”// Keep in mind we are here at the University of Connecticut and medical students are going to take that this to heart, so please use your care. |
| - | Dr. Saine: Let's put it this way -- it's not progressing forward. In countries like Brazil where homeopathy is offered in university at medical schools, 85% of medical students say that homeopathy should be __**mandatory**__ because they're exposed, they see it and every medical student should be taught homeopathy not an introduction, pure homeopathy to every student -- because they're exposed to it. So the future will answer that question where UConn was progressive backward or forward. I am predicting it was way ahead of its time! | + | Dr. Saine: Let's put it this way -- it's not progressing forward. In countries like Brazil where homeopathy is offered in university at medical schools, 85% of medical students say that homeopathy should be **mandatory** because they're exposed [to it], they see it and every medical student should be taught homeopathy -- not an introduction, pure homeopathy to every student -- because they're exposed to it. So the future will answer that question -- whether UConn was progressive backward or forward. I am predicting it was way ahead of its time! |
| Dr. Novella: First of all, that requirement is being imposed upon medical schools by the American Medical Students Association which has a pro-CAM social interest group and they were able to lobby the credentialing committee to say that medical schools have to teach CAM in order to keep their credentialing. So I don’t know if this came within UConn or they were just responding, like the Yale is, to this externally imposed commandment to do this. My view is -- I spent a lot of time studying CAM and teaching about it -- Complementary and Alternative Therapy because it's part of culture now and it’s out there. I think it's reasonable to teach **about** it as long as you are not promoting unscientific or pseudoscientific beliefs, conclusions; you're not abusing the science. I think it will actually be very helpful to teach medical students how to distinguish science from pseudoscience in their own profession. | Dr. Novella: First of all, that requirement is being imposed upon medical schools by the American Medical Students Association which has a pro-CAM social interest group and they were able to lobby the credentialing committee to say that medical schools have to teach CAM in order to keep their credentialing. So I don’t know if this came within UConn or they were just responding, like the Yale is, to this externally imposed commandment to do this. My view is -- I spent a lot of time studying CAM and teaching about it -- Complementary and Alternative Therapy because it's part of culture now and it’s out there. I think it's reasonable to teach **about** it as long as you are not promoting unscientific or pseudoscientific beliefs, conclusions; you're not abusing the science. I think it will actually be very helpful to teach medical students how to distinguish science from pseudoscience in their own profession. | ||
| Line 440: | Line 440: | ||
| Homeopathy is often referred to as the science of therapeutics, because it was developed systematically, step-by-step, carefully over more than 50 years by a very meticulous scientist by the name of Samuel Hahnemann and careful experimentation and verifications by millions of physicians and patrons for more than 200 years. | Homeopathy is often referred to as the science of therapeutics, because it was developed systematically, step-by-step, carefully over more than 50 years by a very meticulous scientist by the name of Samuel Hahnemann and careful experimentation and verifications by millions of physicians and patrons for more than 200 years. | ||
| - | The great compelling beauty of homeopathy, as a system of medicine, is that are no theories or abstractions, it is a purely phenomenological approach to sickness. Hahnemann has indeed developed a purely descriptive method of science, which allows for new growth and change in knowledge. | + | The great compelling beauty of homeopathy, as a system of medicine, is that there are no theories or abstractions, it is a purely phenomenological approach to sickness. Hahnemann has indeed developed a purely descriptive method of science, which allows for new growth and change in knowledge. |
| The most similar remedy is chosen according to a well-confirmed principle. So the facts of the patient -- the symptoms of the patient -- and the facts of the proving are mixed together. There is no theory, just the principle of similarity joining them. | The most similar remedy is chosen according to a well-confirmed principle. So the facts of the patient -- the symptoms of the patient -- and the facts of the proving are mixed together. There is no theory, just the principle of similarity joining them. | ||
| Line 453: | Line 453: | ||
| Homeopathy is rational, safe, efficacious, predictable, beneficial, wise, and likely the greatest gift for suffering humanity. | Homeopathy is rational, safe, efficacious, predictable, beneficial, wise, and likely the greatest gift for suffering humanity. | ||
| - | Because we fully don’t understand the mechanism of a phenomena doesn’t at all invalidate it, and we might never fully understand the mechanism of homeopathy, as we may never understand the universe, life, consciousness; we may never understand energy. What is energy? | + | Because we don’t fully understand the mechanism of a phenomena doesn’t at all invalidate it, and we might never fully understand the mechanism of homeopathy, as we may never understand the universe, life, consciousness; we may never understand energy. What is energy? |
| - | Today, I presented research clearly establishing that the process of serial dilutions and succussion used in homeopathy results in durable and measurable changes in the solutions therefore supporting the plausibility of UMPs and making it clear that homeopathy can be investigated like any other natural phenomena and completely discredit such blatant statement that it doesn’t work because it can’t work. | + | Today, I presented research clearly establishing that the process of serial dilutions and succussion used in homeopathy results in durable and measurable changes in the solutions, therefore supporting the plausibility of UMPs and making it clear that homeopathy can be investigated like any other natural phenomena and completely discredit such blatant statement that 'it doesn’t work because it can’t work'. |
| - | I also presented basic research //in vitro// and so on. Skeptics carry a great responsibility as for more than 200 years they have stalled scientific progress in one of the most important branch of human endeavors. I hope this is only the beginning of discussion between homeopaths and skeptics. As I said earlier, true scientists should come to the same conclusion as long as they stick to facts and use sound reasoning. | + | I also presented basic research //in vitro// and so on. Skeptics carry a great responsibility as for more than 200 years they have stalled scientific progress in one of the most important branches of human endeavors. I hope this is only the beginning of discussion between homeopaths and skeptics. As I said earlier, true scientists should come to the same conclusion as long as they stick to facts and use sound reasoning. |
| - | Skeptics are not going come out of the deep hole they have dug themselves and for humanity, unless they can be self-critical like true scientists. Thank you, thank you, thank you! (audience clapping) | + | Skeptics are not going come out of the deep hole they have dug themselves and for humanity -- unless they can be self-critical like true scientists. Thank you, thank you, thank you! (audience clapping) |
| Dr. Novella: Thanks to Dr. Saine, thanks to UConn for hosting this very interesting discussion. There are lot of things in the history of science, really interesting ideas that have been discarded over time because they turned out not to be true even after decades, sometimes even centuries of people thinking that they were true. | Dr. Novella: Thanks to Dr. Saine, thanks to UConn for hosting this very interesting discussion. There are lot of things in the history of science, really interesting ideas that have been discarded over time because they turned out not to be true even after decades, sometimes even centuries of people thinking that they were true. | ||
| - | Isaac Newton wrote more words about alchemy than about math or about physics he was convinced that it was real. He spend the bulk of his scientific energy and investigating it and it turned out to be 100% completely nonsense. History is littered with ideas that were investigated, shown to be wanting and discarded. Homeopathy is one of those ideas. It simply hasn't been discarded because of cultural inertia because there are people who believe that it works and are not listening to the scientific evidence which is showing that science has essentially moved beyond the notions that homeopathy was based upon and the clinical evidence that shows in fact, not surprisingly, if you look at the basic science, that it doesn't work. I know it's very hard it’s very difficult to wrap your mind around the notion that a treatment that seems to work whether you're a practitioner or a patient; when a treatment seems to work, every neuron in our brain screams this is real, this happened, this is a fact. But we know that could also be 100% illusion. Our brains manufacture, construct our concept of reality for us and unless we subject it to a very rigorous filter of scientific methodology, we can’t know that something works or that it doesn't work. When you subject that filter to homeopathy there is one clear screaming answer -- it’s not real, it doesn't work! If this was the best invention for medicine to save the humanity -- all the things that homeopaths say it is; if it was half a tenth as effective as they said it is it was we wouldn't still be here debating -- it would be easily demonstrable in clinical trials. The fact that it hasn't is because it doesn't work! Thank you. (audience clapping) | + | Isaac Newton wrote more words about alchemy than about math or about physics -- he was convinced that it was real. He spend the bulk of his scientific energy investigating it and it turned out to be 100% completely nonsense. History is littered with ideas that were investigated, shown to be wanting and discarded. Homeopathy is one of those ideas. It simply hasn't been discarded because of cultural inertia because there are people who believe that it works and are not listening to the scientific evidence which is showing that science has essentially moved beyond the notions that homeopathy was based upon and the clinical evidence that shows -- in fact, not surprisingly, if you look at the basic science -- that it doesn't work. I know it's very hard; it’s very difficult to wrap your mind around the notion that a treatment that seems to work whether you're a practitioner or a patient; when a treatment seems to work, every neuron in our brain screams this is real, this happened, this is a fact. But we know that could also be 100% illusion. Our brains manufacture, construct our concept of reality for us and unless we subject it to a very rigorous filter of scientific methodology, we can’t know that something works or that it doesn't work. When you subject that filter to homeopathy, there is one clear screaming answer -- it’s not real, it doesn't work! If this was the best invention for medicine to save the humanity -- all the things that homeopaths say it is; if it was half a tenth as effective as they said it is it was, we wouldn't still be here debating -- it would be easily demonstrable in clinical trials. The fact that it hasn't is because it doesn't work. Thank you. (audience clapping) |
| Presenter: We thank both of you for your thoughtful discussion and for visiting us today and sharing with us! Thank you so much! | Presenter: We thank both of you for your thoughtful discussion and for visiting us today and sharing with us! Thank you so much! | ||
en/misc/talk-saine-novella.txt · Last modified: 2018/07/24 11:04 by legatum
Page Tools
Except where otherwise noted, content on this wiki is licensed under the following license: CC Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported
